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Birth:          ABT 1048 Graville St. Honorine, Normandy

Notes
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=jweber&id=I07177
The following posts to SGM postulate that Alvarissa married Alfgar Earl of Mercia and 
was mother of Lucy who married Ivo de Taillebois. The main reasoning behind this 
marriage was because she was supposed to be mother of Lucy (and Lucy was thought 
to be daughter of Alfgar). However Keat-Rohan (see notes under Lucy of Mercia) 
proposes that Lucy was a daughter of Turold Sheriff of Lincoln by a daughter of 
William Malet; therefore I believe that this same "Alvarissa" was married to Turold and 
not to Alfgar. I now see no reason to have a daughter of William Malet being married 
to Alfgar Earl of Mercia.

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copied from soc.genealogy.medieval newsgroup:
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In a message dated 10/7/98 11:43:15 AM, allenk AT pacbell.net writes:

<>

If this is _not_ the case, I surely want to know. I do not have a copy at my office, but 
my notes say the marriages of Aelfgar are found in Faris, TPA, 140:8i, 191:9, 270:9ii, 
210:8. Also Weis, MCS, 4th ed., 12-11. Ist wife Elgiva, d/o Ethelred the Unready, 
issue: Agatha m 1) Harald 2) Griffith ap Llewelyn, Morkere, Bouchard, Eadwine. Wife 
2: Alvarissa Malet, d/o William Malet and Elise Crispin. Issue: Lucy, m Ivo Talyboys.

Kenneth Harper Finton
Editor/ Publisher
THE PLANTAGENET CONNECTION

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also from soc.genealogy.medieval newsgroup:
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In a message dated 9/30/98 12:38:45 PM, taf2 AT po.cwru.edu writes:

<< This little article by Katherine Keats-Rohan summarizes and builds upon a century's 
worth of progress on the issue. While the "antecessores" clause is subject to some 
interpretation, this theory is preferable to the spurious and problematic Crowland 
charter. >>

I have received some wonderful information, both online and offline on this subject.

I see that everyone is tending to accept that Lucy is not Godiva's granddaughter and I 
appreciate the reasoning behind it. Yet, two things puzzle me greatly and pull me away 
from this modern interpretation. One is the naming patterns in the following 
generations.

(1) 1 Leofric III --Lord Coventry, Earl Mercia, Leicester 1
b. 0975, of Mercia, England
d. 31 Aug 1057, Bromley, Staffordshire, England
& Godiva --Lady of Lincoln 2
b. abt 0980, of Mercia, England
d. 10 Sep 1067
m. bef 1030
(2) 1a Alfgar III --Earl Mercia* 3
d. 1062
& Alvarissa Malet
(3) 1a Lucy Talboys* 4
& Ivo Talboys --Earl of Anjou 5
(4) 1 William de Tailbois
b. of Lancaster, England
& Margaret Tailbois
(5) 1 Goditha Tailbois/Lancaster & Gilbert de Lancaster --4th Baron Kendal

Notice that Lucy's granddaughter is named Goditha. Why, if Lucy is not Godiva's 
granddaughter, would her grandchild be named after Godiva? It is such a common 
naming pattern. If Lucy's parents were Turold the Sheriff and a daughter of William 
Malet, as suggested by Katherine Keats-Rohan, there would be no relationship at all 
with Godiva and no reason for the name to appear in the person of Lucy's 
granddaughter. I realize that the name is not spelled the same, but certainly it is the 
same name.

Neither Lucy's birth date nor death date are known. Leofric d in 1057 at age 85. 
Godiva died ten years later at age 87. Their son Aelfgar died in 1062, five years 
before her mother. If Lucy was 15 when she had her first child, she would have been 
born around 1047. She would have been only 19 at the time of the Conquest. There 
are no chronological problems.

_The Complete Peerage_ says: "The link between Lucy and Aelfgar is the manor of 
Spalding, County Lincoln, which was held by Aelfgar before the Conquest and by 
Lucy's first husband, Ives Taillebois (in her right), at the time of Domesday. No close 
family connection between Aelfgar and Lucy is mentioned in any contemporary 
document, and chronology is opposed to the relationship of father and daughter. 
Moreover, the only known children of Aelfgar are Edwin, Morcar and Aeldgitha, wife of 
Harold, and consequently the passing of the manor of Spalding cannot be held to 
justify the inference that Aelfgar (a) was father of Lucy."

The second thing that bothers me is the land transfers. It is the basis of the Keats-
Rohan argument. But if Lucy's father was Aelfgar III who married Alvarissa Malet 
daughter of William Mallet and William married the daughter of Thorold the Sheriff, 
then the naming patterns are consistent and the land transactions make sense.

Complete Peerage: "Other manors of Thorold which passed to Lucy are Belchford, 
Scamblesby, Stenigot, Tetney and Donington. (a) Lucy also held Alkborough, (b) 
which had belonged in the time of the Confessor to William Malet, (c) father of Lucy's 
uncle Robert Malet. If Lucy's mother was William Malet's daughter, this may have 
been her maritagium; and the fact that Thorold gave tithes in this place (d) has been 
advanced as evidence that he was her husband."

Though I accept that the evidence is unclear, I can find no more weight to one 
argument than the other.

- Ken

Kenneth Harper Finton
Editor/ Publisher
THE PLANTAGENET CONNECTION

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also from soc.genealogy.medieval newsgroup:
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In a message dated 10/7/98 2:32:24 AM, paul AT pblay.force9.co.uk writes:

<>

There is more than one Thorold. I am willing to accept the traditional view that he was 
actually Godiva's father and sheriff of Lincoln as recorded by Faris in _The 
Plantagenet Ancestry_. After all the electrons 'spilled' here and all the ink 'spilled' 
elsewhere, this is still befuddled.

This is one of the last puzzles I was trying to conclude before actually printing THE 
ANCESTRY OF ELIZABETH OF YORK. Marlyn Lewis, the compiler, has kept the 
ancestry along the traditional lines as recorded by Faris and Turton, i.e, Lucy's father 
is the son of Leofric and Lady Godiva. Even though some modernists believe that the 
Leofric connection is invalid, I still tend to think that it makes more sense than the 
alternatives, therefore I am solving the problem by noting that the connection is 
disputed and printing the traditional information anyway.

There are several reasons for so doing:

CP: "The link between Lucy and Aelfgar is the manor of Spalding, County Lincoln, 
which was held by Aelfgar before the Conquest and by Lucy's first husband, Ives 
Taillebois (in her right), at the time of Domesday. Other manors of Thorold which 
passed to Lucy are Belchford, Scamblesby, Stenigot, Tetney and Donington. (a) Lucy 
also held Alkborough, (b) which had belonged in the time of the Confessor to William 
Malet, (c) father of Lucy's uncle Robert Malet. If Lucy's mother was William Malet's 
daughter, this may have been her maritagium; and the fact that Thorold gave tithes in 
this place (d) has been advanced as evidence that he was her husband... the only 
known children of Aelfgar are Edwin, Morcar and Aeldgitha, wife of Harold, and 
consequently the passing of the manor of Spalding cannot be held to justify the 
inference that Aelfgar was father of Lucy. "

The Croyland Charter is dismissed because it is a late or forged charter--not quite 
contemporary--rewritten by the clergy to justify their possession of lands, as is the 
case with most forged charters. That does not necessarily mean that the genealogical 
information is absolutely false, but it does mean "stop, look and listen." Nor does that 
fact that Lucy was not mentioned as Aelfgar's daughter mean that she was absolutely 
not his daughter. The only daughter mentioned was Agatha (Aeldgitha) who married 
Harold II--killed at Hastings and she married a very famous figure. This is neither proof 
nor disproof that Lucy was her sister.

Regarding the confusion about the Lancasters, it seems that the monks were 
confused and had the wrong information. "To this the monkish chroniclers have added 
the fiction that he was the son of Ketel, son of Eldred, son of Ivo Taillebois (Mon Angl 
iii 553 & Cockersands Cartulary, Chethem Soc (New Series) xxxix 305), whereas he 
was almost, if not quite, contemporary with Ivo."

Richard Borthwick wrote: "If Lucy had a son by Ivo, presumably he would have been 
heir to her lands and thence to the Lancaster family. From what I can recall this is not 
what happened." An answer may be that the son, William, died before his sister 
Beatrice. Then he would have been capable of inheriting only a very small (4x8) plot 
of land. Beatrice, married Ribald, the illegitimate son of Eudes. Also, Ivo had at least 
one--if not more--illegitimate children. William may not have been Lucy's offspring, but 
still a son of Ivo.

Faris has Aelfgar III married to Alvarissa Malet, daughter of William Malet. Though 
Alfgar died in 1061, before the conquest, this marriage could still be valid. Their 
daughter, according to this reconstruction, was Lucy.

Though this scenario seems to make the most sense to me, it will likely never be 
proven. Neither will any alternative scenario be proven. For all the revisionist 'ink 
spilled', and all the trillions of rearranged electrons, no proof is obtainable now or in 
the future unless the future sees a major archaeological discovery. Therefore, one can 
let the emotional side have some weight ... and there is an emotional side:

Lady Godiva is one of the most famous of all women in the entire span of history. The 
legend of her ride through the village stark naked on a horse has inspired adolescent 
boys to late night visions for a thousand years. Each and every one of these boys 
have become the 'peeping Tom' who could not help but gaze upon that erotic scene.

If Lady Godiva is to remain in the historical record as a Plantagenet ancestor, then the 
scenario of her family connections cannot--and should not be--summarily discarded. To 
do so is a disservice to her memory and the fantasies of young boys throughout the 
ages.

Kenneth Harper Finton
Editor/ Publisher
THE PLANTAGENET CONNECTION

Parents
MALET William (ABT 1023 - ABT 1071)
CRISPIN Heselia (ABT 1025 - )

Siblings
MALET Beatrix (ABT 1045 - )
MALET Alvarissa (ABT 1048 - )
MALET Gilbert (1057 - 1105)

Marriage To ____ Turold (ABT 1020 - BEF 1079)
    m.  

Notes

Parents
OF COVENTRY Thorold (ABT  985 - )
----- ----- ()

Children by ____ Turold ABT 1020 - BEF 1079
OF MERCIA Lucy (Lucia) (ABT 1071 - 1141)

Produced by Fzip 1.7 6/20/2017